Vaccines and Autism

pwfaith · #1 (**permalink**) 04-04-2006, 02:27 PM

I read the first article today while waiting for my midwife. I know this has been debated a million times but I still don't understand why so many parents still think vaccines cause autism if all these studies are now showing the very opposite. I wish I'd had these 2 articles the other day in talking with a mom who was totally convinced vacs caused autism and wouldn't vaccinate at all.

Do Vaccines Cause Autism?
Mercury compounds are the culprit behind the autism-vaccine scare.
By Loraine M. Stern, MD

Some people believe that vaccines -- or, more specifically, thimerosal, a mercury compound that was once present in trace amounts in vaccines but has since been eliminated -- can cause autism. It's becoming clear that autism is a genetic disorder, which may or may not be triggered by other components such as environmental factors.

The idea that vaccines can cause autism has never been proved in large studies, but many parents today are not convinced. As a matter of fact, two recent studies showed the opposite to be true. A study from the University of Bristol, in England, followed some 13,000 children for six to seven years, while a study from the Communicable Disease Surveillance Center, in London, reviewed the history of 100,000 children born between 1988 and 1997. In both studies, children were given vaccines that contained thimerosal.

The results? Children who had a higher rate of exposure to thimerosal had a lower incidence of autism, developmental delay, hyperactivity, and conduct disorders than those who had less exposure to the mercury compound.

Loraine M. Stern, MD, is a clinical professor of pediatrics at the University of California, Los Angeles, and a practicing pediatrician.

Originally published in American Baby magazine, February 2005.

Source: HealthyKids.com - Healthy Kids online (link)

MMR Vaccine and Autism
By Maureen Connolly

Q. Some people say the MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) vaccine causes autism. Is this true?

A. This allegation persists despite reams of medical literature, including studies published in the Journal of the American Medical Association and the New England Journal of Medicine, refuting it. The belief originated in 1988 with a British gastroenterologist named Andrew Wakefield, who observed 12 children with inflammatory bowel disease, eight of whom developed autism a month after receiving the MMR vaccines. His theory, published in the British medical journal The Lancet, was that MMR inflamed the intestines, allowing for damaging proteins to enter the bloodstream and travel to the brain. Critics pointed out the study's flaws: The group of children was too small, there was selection bias in assembling it, and the study lacked controls and supportive laboratory evidence.

Since then, several large-scale studies have failed to uphold Wakefield's premise. One of the most extensive -- a survey of 537,000 children in Denmark -- concluded that autism was no more prevalent in the vaccinated group than the unvaccinated. One reason why the connection between the vaccine and autism persists is that children get their first dose of MMR at about 15 months, the same time that symptoms of autism often become apparent. Last November, one of Dr. Wakefield's collaborators in the 1988 study, Simon Murch, MD, announced that he believed the MMR vaccine to be safe and urged British parents to immunize their children. Dr. Murch said he was moved to speak out because he fears that Britain, where immunization rates have fallen to as low as 60 percent in some areas and which has experienced several measles outbreaks in the past few years, is on the brink of a major measles epidemic.

Maureen Connolly is the coauthor of The Essential C-Section Guide (Broadway Books), due out in May 2004.

Originally published in American Baby magazine, February 2004.
(link)

Do you Agree or Disagree? Are the studies founded at all or do vacs really cause autism? (I know this is a very sensitive and touchy subject for some so I'm not meaning any offense or trying to belittle the seriousness of autism in any way.)

snickers · #2 (**permalink**) 04-04-2006, 02:44 PM

I'm not sure if everyone has debated that it *causes* autism, or triggers it. Also I know there are some vaxes that contain small trace amounts of thimerosal.

roxrkool · #3 (**permalink**) 04-04-2006, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by snickers

I'm not sure if everyone has debated that it *causes* autism, or triggers it. Also I know there are some vaxes that contain small trace amounts of thimerosal.

Yes, we actually have debated that many times. Maybe not so much on SK, but definitely on GeoParent and Myria.

There seem to be quite a few diseases, such as MS, that appear to be triggered by either a virus and/or bacterial infection or even by environmental factors (e.g., metals). I'm starting to wonder if autism isn't another one.

Like many human qualities and tendencies, autism is something that occurs naturally and in varying degrees in humans. So it's probably hard to determine whether the number of autistics today is any different than in previous decades or centuries. Then of course, doctors are getting better at identifying autism.

pwfaith · #4 (**permalink**) 04-04-2006, 05:14 PM

Then of course, doctors are getting better at identifying autism.

I agree, which I think goes along with what one of the articles says...

One reason why the connection between the vaccine and autism persists is that children get their first dose of MMR at about 15 months, the same time that symptoms of autism often become apparent.

midwifemommyofmany · #5 (**permalink**) 04-04-2006, 05:22 PM

Well for one, the two "studies" you posted came out of American Baby Magazine, hardly a scientific journal. You can't see if the actual studies have any merit unless you critique the study in the journal, know who funded it, what type of study it was, how it was done, etc.... It has been shown that many studies published in NEJM and JAMA are funded by drug companies.

What has been shown is that there is possibly an enzyme missing in some children that do not allow their bodies to break down the mercury that thimerisol is (that particular mercury is actually supposed to break down in 24-48 hours and not bioaccumulate like toxic mercury does). So those children could potentially build up large amts. of toxic mercury if they have multiple shots with thimerisol in them. And since it is a neurotoxin it could potentially trigger autism in those children.

I vaccinate my kids with thimerisol free vaccines, so I'm not saying that people shouldn't vaccinate. But there is *some* evidence out there that certain kids can acquire autism from vaccines (at least the ones with thimerisol).

crkramp · #6 (**permalink**) 04-04-2006, 06:01 PM

Anya, I know your husband isn't a ped, but he is a doctor. Just curious, does he agree with your analysis? Not trying to be antagonistic. And now I just realized that you are a nurse and have a lot of experience with this stuff. For some reason I was under the impression that the bulk of vaccinations are thimerisol-free. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Rox - keep changing that sig. You're going to turn me into a geologist yet. I'm digging on all this dinosaur stuff. Of course, chemistry is my bag.

roxrkool · #7 (**permalink**) 04-04-2006, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by midwifemommyof4

What has been shown is that there is possibly an enzyme missing in some children that do not allow their bodies to break down the mercury that thimerisol is (that particular mercury is actually supposed to break down in 24-48 hours and not bioaccumulate like toxic mercury does). So those children could potentially build up large amts. of toxic mercury if they have multiple shots with thimerisol in them. And since it is a neurotoxin it could potentially trigger autism in those children.

I vaccinate my kids with thimerisol free vaccines, so I'm not saying that people shouldn't vaccinate. But there is *some* evidence out there that certain kids can acquire autism from vaccines (at least the ones with thimerisol).

Interesting. I've never read that. Could you provide a link or something to read up on it a bit more?

NovAngel · #8 (**permalink**) 04-04-2006, 06:09 PM

One reason why the connection between the vaccine and autism persists is that children get their first dose of MMR at about 15 months, the same time that symptoms of autism often become apparent.

My son was vaxed for MMR at 12 months....I've always heard that Autism shows up at around 24 months.

Regardless, I still say there is no link between the two. JMHO.

momnid · #9 (**permalink**) 04-04-2006, 09:15 PM

I do not believe vaccines cause autism. But I am still not vaccinating my kids. Not ALL non-vaxers use this as a reason to not get the vaccinations.

pwfaith · #10 (**permalink**) 04-05-2006, 06:59 AM

Not ALL non-vaxers use this as a reason to not get the vaccinations.

I understand that, and was never trying to imply that this was a main reason or the reason non-vaxers use. Just one I heard recently from one lady and have seen used here before. Just wanted to clarify that.

momnid · #11 (**permalink**) 04-05-2006, 07:04 AM

I think I somewhat agree with the poster who said that their is an enzyme missing that causes the autism. Maybe it is something in the vaccine that triggers autism, and therefore the 2 are related. But like cancer (other than from smoking etc.), I don't believe that something causes autism. I believe a person is born with the gene, and it is something that causes it to turn in to a disease, triggers it, if you will.

midwifemommyofmany · #12 (**permalink**) 04-05-2006, 07:58 AM

Anya, I know your husband isn't a ped, but he is a doctor. Just curious, does he agree with your analysis? Not trying to be antagonistic. And now I just realized that you are a nurse and have a lot of experience with this stuff. For some reason I was under the impression that the bulk of vaccinations are thimerisol-free. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Yeah, that is becomming more and more the case although many clinics are still trying to get rid of their thimerisol containing ones and are still giving them out. Also the last time I checked the vax that has the combined DTap plus polio plus Hep B (can't remember the brand name) still had thimerisol in it...but perhaps that is not the case now. I have been dealing with this for 15 years and when I was giving my 9 and 7 year olds their vaccines we were still dealing with the thimerisol issue.

My dh totally agrees with me on the vaccine issue. Also it totally pisses him off that whenever a new vaccine comes up the University (here, that is) will start including it in their vax schedule when they start getting extra funding from the pharmeceutical companies (which is currently the case with Hep A).

Interesting. I've never read that. Could you provide a link or something to read up on it a bit more?

Yeah, let me do a search on that. I read it in a journal about 2 years ago and I thought it was fascinating...and also made more sense than anything else. BC essentially the mercury that thimerisol is we aren't supposed to bioaccumulate...so this was something that actually made some sense to me.

tweetyluvsjoshua · #13 (**permalink**) 04-05-2006, 01:53 PM

I do not vaccinate my children, for many reasons. The biggest is because of my overall opinion on health. I do not wish to inject known toxins into my baby, and not just speaking of thimersol, but others. For example, formeldehyde and aluminum. This however is not the only aspect of our lives I strive to attain limited exposure to toxins. I do realize that I cannot eliminate all toxins into our bodies, but my limiting them to the best of my ability I believe our body's and especially immune systems will be stronger for it.

midwifemommyofmany · #14 (**permalink**) 04-05-2006, 05:32 PM

Roxrkool,

Here is at least a link to a more scientific discussion of what I was referring to. I am trying to pull up some actual studies but for some reason am having trouble logging on to the med library. Anyhow I know this site is not un-biased but at least it goes into some better scientific explaination. I will try and get something better if I can.

http://www.ewg.org/reports/autism/execsumm.php

Jescafa · #15 (**permalink**) 04-05-2006, 06:23 PM

The live DTaP (no longer used in the US) and the standard flu shot are the only ones that still contain significant amounts of thimerosol. Almost all vaccines still contain trace amounts.

I've heard what Anya has mentioned, before, about thimerosol & autism, and it makes a certain amount of sense to me. The kicker is that you don't know if your kid has that sensitivity until you expose them to mercury.

With that in mind, I forego the flu shot, for my daughter and for myself. There IS a pediatric version of the flu shot available, which only has the trace amounts of thimerosol, but it wasn't available the first year that DD was old enough to get the shot, because of a shortage. As for myself, I'd rather get the flu than inject myself with a neurotoxin annually.

I feel that for all other vaccines--the ones that contain only a trace amount--the benefit outweighs the risk.

Soon2Bmomof2inMN · #16 (**permalink**) 04-06-2006, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by Jescafa

With that in mind, I forego the flu shot, for my daughter and for myself. There IS a pediatric version of the flu shot available, which only has the trace amounts of thimerosol, but it wasn't available the first year that DD was old enough to get the shot, because of a shortage. As for myself, I'd rather get the flu than inject myself with a neurotoxin annually.

We don't do the flu shot either, and my doctor and every doctor I saw at that clinic gave me a really hard time about it. At one point they tried to scare me into getting it. "Young babies are the ones that get complications and die from the flu. There is no treatment, and a certain percentage of people die from it every year." blah blah blah. I still didn't get it, and I was more than a little ticked that they would stoop so low to try and sell a stinking vaccine.

Houseplantgirl · #17 (**permalink**) 04-06-2006, 01:18 PM

Do the Doctors get PAID to try to get you to take the flu shot, I mean paid by drug companies??
Do drug companies give dr.s money or incentives to push THEIR drug??
Just curious, b/c I went to the dr and just asked a simple ? about bc and she went off about Mirena and was ready to sign me up...I was like, Slow down honey!!!
It felt to me like she was pushing me to do it, did she have motive? Like getting $$ or something for it?
Do they (clinics/public health) get more $$ the more shots they give??
Just wondering.
S

roxrkool · #18 (**permalink**) 04-06-2006, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by midwifemommyof4

Roxrkool,

Here is at least a link to a more scientific discussion of what I was referring to. I am trying to pull up some actual studies but for some reason am having trouble logging on to the med library. Anyhow I know this site is not un-biased but at least it goes into some better scientific explaination. I will try and get something better if I can.

http://www.ewg.org/reports/autism/execsumm.php

I think it's plausible that mercury causes some children to develop autism, but the data so far just doesn't support that conclusion very well.

I read somewhere that Denmark has been thimerisol free since the mid-90s and yet cases of autism continue to rise instead of fall. This strongly suggests something else in the environment is triggering autism.

mom2-four · #19 (**permalink**) 04-06-2006, 05:08 PM

Here is what I've concluded. A child may become autistic, from vaccines,but there hasn't been enough research done, from what I've read to conclude whether it does so the question is still in the air.
But, thinking along those lines, could vaccines cause an early on start of Dementia, Alzheimer's, or some cancers? That is the next step into my thinking, what about other diseases that affect the brain, and how it functions?

midwifemommyofmany · #20 (**permalink**) 04-06-2006, 06:01 PM

I read somewhere that Denmark has been thimerisol free since the mid-90s and yet cases of autism continue to rise instead of fall. This strongly suggests something else in the environment is triggering autism.

Well I *believe* that autism in California has risen by an alarming rate (like 300%) over the last so many years....and it is also higher in children who live near major highways. I do personally believe that there has to be many components to it.

Speaking of autism I don't know if anyone has ever heard Temple Grandin but she is an autistic woman who developed a special way to help cows going to slaughter be less afraid and thus die in peace (she is responsible for the meat industry changing a lot of their ways and making it more humane..at least as far as McDonalds suppliers go). Anyhow she has written books on animals and compared them and their senses to humans with autism. She is a fascinating and amazing person!