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This is a discussion on Cio within the Debate forums, part of the Say Anything category; I saw this in the cosleeping thread and wanted to comment, but since it was so OT I thought I'...
I saw this in the cosleeping thread and wanted to comment, but since it was so OT I thought I'd better start a new thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LindaD
I did use CIO with my 4th child and it was very VERY much based upon my instincts that this miserable unhappy child needed SLEEP more than anything else and by over-stimulating her (holding, walking, rocking) was was not letting her get that need met. My INSTINCTS told me that if I'd leave her to her own deviced she would figure it out. And she did (yes, I'm leaving out lots of details, but you get my point...)
I am anti-CIO (for my kids), but I think I have a different definition of it than most people. When I hear CIO, I think of someone putting a child in their crib and leaving, letting the child scream and cry until they are so exhausted that they basically pass out when there are other ways the child would prefer to be comforted or put to sleep. My whole deal is this, I'd like to get my child to sleep with as little crying and in as little time as possible. If he goes to sleep faster being laid down, crying for a few minutes, then settling in to sleep, great! If he'll go to sleep faster by me rocking him/nursing him to sleep, that's great too. I think so much of it depends on the particular child. My first son LOVED to be held, cuddled, and rocked to sleep, he still prefers to fall asleep snuggled up to me. Isaiah, on the other hand, needs to be swaddled, with his nuk, and put down (if he's overtired then its another story, but same basic principle).
I think CIO only really BOTHERS me when I hear of people doing it with really young children (like younger than 6 months..), not because that is what works best for the child, but because the parent doesn't want to take the time to put the child to sleep and "they'd better learn to fall asleep by themself." I think self-soothing is a valuable skill to have, when the baby is mature enough to aquire it. The only thing a 2-3 month old baby is 'learning' by CIO is that they can't depend on their parents to meet their needs.
So, what is YOUR definition of CIO, have you ever used it? Did it work?
My daughter was about two weeks old and six days into godawful colic (six-seven hour crying stints without nursing) when DH and I realized we were either going to step out of the room or commit suicide on the spot. We walked out onto the porch, got some fresh air, and in five minutes she was asleep. I've had people tell me before that this was OK only b/c I did it out of desperation. So what about all the times after that that I did it by design? My kid was just frantically overstimulated, all the time. She did not fall asleep unless she was alone, in the dark, in her crib (or in the car). She was this way from a very early age. It was only when we realized that she needed total silence and solitude in order to sleep that things improved for everyone. So people can judge me all they want. I followed my instincts and did what my kid needed me to do. Believe me, I would have much rather she was the type who could be soothed to sleep.
For that reason, you'll never hear me coming out on one side or another of the CIO debate. I do believe it can be effective and even, as in my case, necessary, and I'll say so. But I would rather I hadn't had to do it, so I'll never be some sort of proselytizer for it either.
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Jessica 34
DH 42
Darling Niece 14
Big girl S. born August 28, 2003
Expecting in January 2007!
My daughter was about two weeks old and six days into godawful colic (six-seven hour crying stints without nursing) when DH and I realized we were either going to step out of the room or commit suicide on the spot. We walked out onto the porch, got some fresh air, and in five minutes she was asleep. I've had people tell me before that this was OK only b/c I did it out of desperation. So what about all the times after that that I did it by design? My kid was just frantically overstimulated, all the time. She did not fall asleep unless she was alone, in the dark, in her crib (or in the car). She was this way from a very early age. It was only when we realized that she needed total silence and solitude in order to sleep that things improved for everyone. So people can judge me all they want. I followed my instincts and did what my kid needed me to do. Believe me, I would have much rather she was the type who could be soothed to sleep.
For that reason, you'll never hear me coming out with absolutes re. the CIO debate. I do believe it can be effective and even, as in my case, necessary, and I'll say so. But I would rather I hadn't had to do it, so I'll never be some sort of proselytizer for it either.
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Jessica 34
DH 42
Darling Niece 14
Big girl S. born August 28, 2003
Expecting in January 2007!
So, what is YOUR definition of CIO, have you ever used it? Did it work?
I consider CIO to be sleep training. Leaving a child basically to cry himself to sleep. I havn't used it and couldn't imagine doing it. Acording to CIO books a child that has got himself so upset that he vomits is perfectly normal. That disgusts me and is bordering on abuse IMO.
y kid was just frantically overstimulated, all the time. She did not fall asleep unless she was alone, in the dark, in her crib (or in the car). She was this way from a very early age. It was only when we realized that she needed total silence and solitude in order to sleep that things improved for everyone.
That IMO is not CIO, that is knowing what your child needs and doing it. Even my son in the beginning needed to be alone to fuss for a couple minutes when he was over stimulated. Perfectly normal.
I did consider it a mild version of CIO. So do a lot of people I talk with on these boards, whether they condemned me for it or not. I can't really argue with the definition--I was leaving my daughter alone to cry herself to sleep, I can't deny that. But the reality is so much more complex than that.
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Jessica 34
DH 42
Darling Niece 14
Big girl S. born August 28, 2003
Expecting in January 2007!
I agree with the use whatever method works approach.
We've done both no-cry and CIO methods. Until she was 10 months old, we usually could soothe her to sleep with some holding and rocking. Then she switched on us and I have to leave her alone if I want her to go to sleep.
Definately the best method will vary by child. I know people who did CIO with their bab y at 4 months and it worked wonderfully. The first night he cried for an hour but after 3 nights he was sleeping 8-10 hours straight and more importantly he was a much happier child during the day.
However, I know another women who tried it and the baby vomited and just got completely agitated. She didn't try it again.
Interesting the CIO and no-cry 'experts' have each backed away from their extreme positions. Ferber has stated that some kids can't be sleep trained and Sears has said, yeah maybe we do need to take into account that adults need to sleep.
before I fell in love with cosleeping and I would try to put them in a crib after they were 6 months old. I used to let them cry a bit and they would fall back to sleep themselves after a bit. I only let them cry if I knew they were not dirty or hungry. My kids have always had distinct cries. But now my daughter is in bed with me so I just change positions and she usually goes right back to sleep. I like it better than I did having her in another room and having to decipher cries.
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Amanda: Mom of 5 beautiful kiddos. We are a non-vaxing, unschooling, homechurching, and farming family. We are unique and love every minute of it
When I think of CIO, I also think of sleep training, in the sense of letting them cry for hours on end. That makes me sick. I've tried letting J cry some and he just gets hysterical and I've decided it's not for me (or him). However I do have friends whose babies can fuss a few min. and go straight to sleep. I have no problems with that.
We did a really MILD version of the whole thing. We would put Annika down (I think she must have been 1) in her crib and sat next to it until she falled asleep. At first she would cry and after about 5 minutes I would pat her back but not make eye contact with her, etc....We would do that and keep extending the time. After a bit (like days) then we would start moving farther and farther out of her room until she finally just didn't need us there anymore. Honestly, if this next one is as over stimulated as Annika I will try this method MUCH earlier. I read about it and saw it on Supernanny and we tried it and it worked fantastic.
I would never let my child cry until they vommited.
I have done what Anya has. I sat next to my son, never left the room. He was around one as well and would wake up 6-8 times a night. I was too tired to let it go on any further. The only critique I have gotten is from AP-moms with only one child. Some AP moms seems to think that having a child means that one should self-erase and that the child is the only important family member.
I think there's a big difference between 5mins and an hour or more. I've never done cio with either of my children, I couldn't stand it if I tried. I honestly can't see leaving a 4mth old to cry alone for an hour. Nor do I think it's a good idea for a 4mth old to go 8-10hrs without being fed unless that was their pattern all along.
My Dd was showing stranger anxiety at 8wks old. I think it was because she had a broken collar bone at birth that went unnoticed and had pain and also was hospitalized at 5wks for RSV (with strange nurses coming in at all hours to take her temperature rectally and stick masks on her face). She was a constant nurser, only wanted me and would scream and cry when other family members held her. It made it very hard on me as I never had any me time, my parents were in Florida for the winter, sister in BC and MIL was hurt that the baby didn't 'like' her. There were times when I desperately needed a 15minute break and would leave her with Dh (she was okay with him some of the time, but seemed to sense it if I wanted to leave the room). I remember him telling me that if something happened and I had to leave for a day there was no way he could hold her screaming that long, he'd have to put her down and walk away or go nuts. But he was the only person that I could leave her with crying, anyone else and I was compelled to go get her after a few minutes. Thankfully she started liking him at around 3-4mths! Although to this day she is very wary meeting people and takes a while to warm up to them. But at least I don't have to worry about her walking off with a stranger.
i agree that there is a fundamental difference between what linda and jes have described and what i think of as CIO. CIO, to me anyway, is about sleep training with no specific regard for the child's "needs". This means that the parent has decided that their child must sleep through the night (typically at a very young age - 8wks is a common age i've heard) and that they need to self-soothe at that age. They have made the decision without specifically looking at their own child's needs (meaning, it's not because their child has proven to them that they need to be alone). they make the decision to put the baby in bed and not go back, no matter what. some do graduated CIO - like leave them for 10 minutes, go in, pat the child, leave for 15, go in, pat the child, leave for 20, etc...this graduated version is slightly less bothersome to me but the underlying point is the same - that they are disregarding their child's temperament and just applying a "one method fits all" mentality.
my son would have vomited after 5 minutes of crying if i'd left him. my daughter, however, doesn't seem as bothered by being alone in her moses basket. she has fallen asleep by herself often. they are such different children, it's amazing. if i let her fuss a bit when she wakes up, she falls back asleep 99% of the time within about a minute. rowan has yet to do that at 3yo. LOL
i also wanted to address one thing...about the fact that CIO "works". "working" is defined as the child sleeping through the night after only a few nights of screaming alone in the dark. that, to me, is the exact opposite of success. our job as parents is NOT just to get them to sleep. sure, sleep is a big deal. we all need it, including our kids. but i really have a hard time feeling good about the kids who have learned to self-soothe at 2mos, 3mos, even 1yr. they're infants. they shouldn't HAVE to self-soothe. not yet, anyway. imo, a child who stops crying after 3 nights of screaming has had his/her spirit broken. he/she has learned that his/her parents WON'T come if they really need them. and that's just too sad to imagine.
BUT - like i said, this is NOT the same thing as has been described by Linda and Jes. knowing them, and how much they are in love with their children, they're not talking about letting their children scream for an hour so they can get some z's. they're talking about listening to what their children need. BIG difference.
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Michele (30)
DH David (33)
Tandem nursing, co-sleeping, and babywearing mama to DS Rowan (3/24/03) & DD Ava (12/13/05)
I've posted my story so many times that I myself am bored with it. Yes, I used CIO with my 4th child in an effort to accommodate her "need" of sleep. What I knew later but didn't realize at the time, the child is soooo easily overstimulated. Even now at age four, she has sensory issues around smells, sounds, bright lights. She will not wear certain clothes, if she gets a hair on her she FREAKS. She hates flushing the toilet 'cause it hurts her ears. Anyway, I'd imaging that as a baby she still had all those sensitivities but I wasn't perceptive enough to know them. Therefore, the holding and rocking and walking just exacerbated the problem. She was overtired and could not possibly fall asleep anywhere but in a complete absence of stimuli, left to settle herself (she was a head-banger and would soothe herself by rocking and banging her head, even at a very young age).
Maybe what I did doesn't meet someone elses definition of CIO, I don't know. But, fundamentally, it WAS. I let her cry herself to sleep. Period.
This conversation rather reminds me of the topic of Atkins and low-carb eating. Everyone envisions this big fat guy frying up 2 pounds of bacon and 1 pound of sausage for every meal of the day. The truth is, a high percentage of low-carbers eat WAY healthier than that and are filled up to their ears with veggies and salads. Same with CIO - everyone assumes it's means "let the kid cry for an hour until he pukes just so mom can finally get some sleep once the kid is trained" and quite frankly I would imagine only a very tiny percentage of idiots do such a thing (probably the ones who fry up 2 pounds of bacon for breakfast on low-carb).
The people who *I* know that do CIO (and most of them are deep undercover because there is so much judgment and misunderstanding about it) don't do anything like that at all. Most of them don't have the issues Jessica and I had and typically used it on an older baby. Most of them try it/do it in small doses and are generally surprised when only 10 minutes pass before the kid realizes that "Well, darnit, the crying didn't get me the response I wanted, I suppose I really should settle down and go to sleep." Most of them know the difference between crying because a need is unmet and crying because the kid doesn't want to go to bed even though he NEEDS to get sleep.
Can use of CIO be irresponsible and abusive? Yes, but so can just about anything else.
Don't lump people all into the 2-pound frying up of bacon category... it doesn't work.
__________________ Linda
Mom to Katie (22), Amber (20), Sarah (9), Jadyn (3), and Raena (1)
Click HERE to see my SBB Digital Scrapbooking Gallery!
I dislike the use of CIO in about 95% of the cases. The other 5% of the cases are like Jessica, Linda and my sister. I certainly do not ever blame a parent for trying it. I know it made the rounds on our June board big time when our babies were about 7 months old. A lot of parents tried it out in that time frame. Some it worked for and others did not. We had parents, including myself, who had not gotten any sleep in 3 days and you were beyond desperate. Your baby was extremely over tired and desperate to sleep also. Yet nothing seems to work, so yeah I could understand trying CIO.
I can't understand this race to get babies to sleep during the night at such an early age. I've read story after story of parents who use CIO when the baby is only 8 weeks old simply because they have decided it is time for them to sleep through the night. I can't agree with this.
It was never about getting her to sleep through the night. Hell, she just turned four and still occasionally doesn't sleep through the night. It was about helping her find the skills to self-soothe since the typical parental soothing techniques did not work. At. All.
If I could have soothed her with the typical tools in a mother's bag of tricks (like I did with her 3 older sisters) then I would have never gone to CIO. Those tools didn't work. I now feel that she NEEDED the lack of stimulization in order to calm herself down and "decompress". In retrospect, I have come to feel that CIO was not just effective, but was NECESSARY.
I have had people who are very ANTI CIO tell me "Well, I don't care if she cried more when I held her - I would have just kept holding her so AT LEAST she would know I was there and she could trust me." But my issue there is that this child had a FUNDAMENTAL NEED that had to be met - sleep. Babies NEED sleep. And this particular baby could NOT get the sleep she needed in my arms. She just couldn't. So my answer to this particular claim from someone is that they were then NOT responding to their baby's cues and NOT meeting the baby's needs. The holding was more about the mother and her hard-nosed philosophy than anything about what the baby needed.
__________________ Linda
Mom to Katie (22), Amber (20), Sarah (9), Jadyn (3), and Raena (1)
Click HERE to see my SBB Digital Scrapbooking Gallery!
It was never about getting her to sleep through the night. Hell, she just turned four and still occasionally doesn't sleep through the night. It was about helping her find the skills to self-soothe since the typical parental soothing techniques did not work. At. All.
Yeah, ditto...for me it was about getting her TO sleep initially. We always went to her when she woke in the middle of the night. Luckily, the one good thing about her sleep personality is that she slept for fairly long stretches even at an early age (so incredibly tired, probably), and was sleeping through by 3 months or so, though getting her down initially was still a challenge.
Quote:
If I could have soothed her with the typical tools in a mother's bag of tricks (like I did with her 3 older sisters) then I would have never gone to CIO. Those tools didn't work. I now feel that she NEEDED the lack of stimulization in order to calm herself down and "decompress". In retrospect, I have come to feel that CIO was not just effective, but was NECESSARY.
I have had people who are very ANTI CIO tell me "Well, I don't care if she cried more when I held her - I would have just kept holding her so AT LEAST she would know I was there and she could trust me." But my issue there is that this child had a FUNDAMENTAL NEED that had to be met - sleep. Babies NEED sleep. And this particular baby could NOT get the sleep she needed in my arms. She just couldn't. So my answer to this particular claim from someone is that they were then NOT responding to their baby's cues and NOT meeting the baby's needs. The holding was more about the mother and her hard-nosed philosophy than anything about what the baby needed
ITA. This has been my experience too.
__________________
Jessica 34
DH 42
Darling Niece 14
Big girl S. born August 28, 2003
Expecting in January 2007!
I used some forms of CIO with Chelsea. I think it's up to each parent to decide what's best for their child. Chelsea would not fall asleep in my arms, so if I picked her up all the time, I would be delaying her sleep. She has never been a good sleeper and I was always worried that she wasn't getting enough. Her naps were inconsistent and that made her very fussy. She was a whole different child when she was well rested.
She also wasn't a crier really. She would just fuss for a while at naptime. Sometimes after 1/2 an hour it would become apparent that she wasn't going to go to bed and I'd go get her. We never had the full blown screaming until recently. Now she will cry loudly if she doesn't want to take a nap. Sometimes we'll let her do it if we can tell that it's a tired cry and that she just needs to calm herself down. As her parent, I can tell the difference. Some of you may not agree with me and think it's bordering on abuse, but I really don't care. I know my child and what she needs.
I'm with Linda on this. Whenever this topic comes up, it's always painted as being so extreme. The mom is only using CIO to serve her own interests. I don't know anyone who is like this. Most everyone I know that has used CIO has done so out of concern for their kids. Kids don't come with instruction manuals so much of what I've done and my friends have done is trial and error. Some things work and others don't. You just don't know what the right answer is until you try different things.
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Betsy (36)
DH Wade (41)
DD Chelsea Elizabeth 6/25/03
Cio
babies: Ada, Boda, Luna, & Jack 
Yes, I used CIO with my 4th child in an effort to accommodate her "need" of sleep. What I knew later but didn't realize at the time, the child is soooo easily overstimulated. Even now at age four, she has sensory issues around smells, sounds, bright lights. She will not wear certain clothes, if she gets a hair on her she FREAKS. She hates flushing the toilet 'cause it hurts her ears. Anyway, I'd imaging that as a baby she still had all those sensitivities but I wasn't perceptive enough to know them. Therefore, the holding and rocking and walking just exacerbated the problem. She was overtired and could not possibly fall asleep anywhere but in a complete absence of stimuli, left to settle herself (she was a head-banger and would soothe herself by rocking and banging her head, even at a very young age).
