Hi! You're not currently logged in or aren't yet a member -- but you can still read everything, as well as reply to posts and vote in polls. If you register (for free), you can also create new topics, track messages/friends, use a sig file and make a blog! (We're also offering great prizes for posting to your blog -- get the details here.)
This is a discussion on Another update ,fetal pain study. within the Debate forums, part of the Say Anything category; Expert Said Fetuses Do Not Feel Pain
According to Stuart Derbyshire, Senior Psychologist at the University of Birmingham, UK, there ...
According to Stuart Derbyshire, Senior Psychologist at the University of Birmingham, UK, there is clear evidence that fetuses are unable to feel pain. He added that offering pain relief for the fetus during an abortion is unsound and not in the best interests of the woman as it may put her at unnecessary risk.
In order to accommodate the subjectivity of pain, said Dr. Derbyshire, a fetus requires the development not only of the brain, but also the mind.
It is thought that the neural circuitry needed to process pain is complete when the fetus is 26 weeks' old.
Dr. Derbyshire argues that the mind only starts to develop after the baby is born, as a consequence of the infants' interaction with the outside world and people around him/her.
Even though the biological development to support pain experience may be ongoing inside the womb, it is only the environment after birth, so needed for pain experience to develop, that needs to happen. Therefore, a fetus, who is still in the womb, cannot experience pain.
Derbyshire said that his study is not looking at whether abortion is right or wrong. He says he is arguing against the use of painkillers during an abortion.
He quoted US measures underway to inform women who want an abortion about the pain the fetus will experience. If women have to, by law, take pain relief, they may be exposing themselves to unnecessary risks and distress.
Derbyshire concludes by writing “Avoiding a discussion of fetal pain with women requesting abortions is not misguided paternalism but a sound policy based on good evidence that fetuses cannot experience pain.”
Can fetuses feel pain? BMJ Volume 332 pp 909-12
Click Here To View Full Paper.
Dr. Derbyshire argues that the mind only starts to develop after the baby is born, as a consequence of the infants' interaction with the outside world and people around him/her.
Even though the biological development to support pain experience may be ongoing inside the womb, it is only the environment after birth, so needed for pain experience to develop, that needs to happen. Therefore, a fetus, who is still in the womb, cannot experience pain.
You would believe this crap.
How much environmental exposure could they possibly have that whole 24 hours after birth? Yet they manage to feel pain during circ before they leave the hospital.
I suppose you'd also believe this idiot if he told you that if a baby fell on the floor immediately after giving birth, he/she wouldn't feel it because it hasn't had any environmental exposure yet.
This makes two subjects you're in denial about, you're on a roll today.
Quote:
gullible
One entry found for gullible.
Main Entry: gull·ible
Variant(s): also gull·able /'g&-l&-b&l/
Function: adjective
: easily duped or cheated
- gull·ibil·i·ty /"g&-l&-'bi-l&-tE/ noun
- gull·ibly /'g&-l&-blE/ adverb
Dr. Derbyshire argues that the mind only starts to develop after the baby is born, as a consequence of the infants' interaction with the outside world and people around him/her.
I totally don't understand this at all...what the heck does the infant's interaction with the outside world mean when discussing the ability to feel pain? When it leaves the woman's body it suddenly catches on to the fact that something hurts?
I don't understand it-I just see the researcher deciding on it in the way that some view a fetus magically becoming a person once and only when it leaves the womb.
I've seen my own daughter in pain immediately after birth due to the many interventions performed on her. She did not need to "interact with her environment" to decide that being poked and prodded with needles and having lumbar punctures was a painful experience.
I don't believe it, I think it's just an opportunity for PBA advocates to say "I told you so"...
How much environmental exposure could they possibly have that whole 24 hours after birth? Yet they manage to feel pain during circ before they leave the hospital.
I suppose you'd also believe this idiot if he told you that if a baby fell on the floor immediately after giving birth, he/she wouldn't feel it because it hasn't had any environmental exposure yet.
This makes two subjects you're in denial about, you're on a roll today.
It's funny, rather than attacking me for showing this article, why not find something in his research to try and disprove it, and show that he's an ***. What........? you won't even try? you can't be bothered to come up with one iota of an argument against this?
I totally don't understand this at all...what the heck does the infant's interaction with the outside world mean when discussing the ability to feel pain? When it leaves the woman's body it suddenly catches on to the fact that something hurts?
I don't understand it-I just see the researcher deciding on it in the way that some view a fetus magically becoming a person once and only when it leaves the womb.
I've seen my own daughter in pain immediately after birth due to the many interventions performed on her. She did not need to "interact with her environment" to decide that being poked and prodded with needles and having lumbar punctures was a painful experience.
I don't believe it, I think it's just an opportunity for PBA advocates to say "I told you so"...
http://press.psprings.co.uk/bmj/april/ac909.pdf
From a medical stand point he is saying that the placenta blocks pain stimuli while in the womb, and only upon birth and seperation from the placenta does the baby feel pain
Quote:
Inferences of fetal pain from such indirect evidence,
however, present considerable difficulties. One is that
many environmental factors inherent to the womb provide
for a distinction between the environment of
fetuses and that of neonates.15 The placenta provides a
chemical environment to encourage sleep and to
suppress higher cortical activation in the presence of
intrusive external stimulation. The environment of the
womb consists of warmth, buoyancy, and a cushion of
fluid to prevent tactile stimulation. In contrast to this
buffered environment, the intense tactile stimulation of
birth and the subsequent separation of the neonate
from the placenta, facilitate the rapid onset of
behavioural activity and wakefulness in the newborn
infant. Birth marks the transition from laying down
brain tissue while in the womb to organising that tissue
for the wider world outside the womb..
There's far more concerning brain development and different types of stimuli. I find it facinating, not as an I told you so. This is medical research that desearves an answer one way or another, just as the cure for cancer or Aids, or perhaps why and how people get Parkinson's. Wouldn't it make you feel better knowing the answer to these and other medical mysteries? ?
It's funny, rather than attacking me for showing this article, why not find something in his research to try and disprove it, and show that he's an ***. What........? you won't even try? you can't be bothered to come up with one iota of an argument against this?
Again...
Quote:
How much environmental exposure could they possibly have that whole 24 hours after birth? Yet they manage to feel pain during circ before they leave the hospital.
Disproved his theory above, and proved he's an @ss.
The only thing that I can say is that they used to believe that baby's (newborns) didn't feel pain. So they would do surgery on them with an anesthetic but no analgesic (pain reliever). You can only imagine how many horrified parents there are who now know their baby's went through surgery without pain relief.
Also I think it is bogus to claim risks of pain medication for baby on the mother. The risks of the abortion are far higher. It seems to me that one would want to err on the side of caution. Being that we can't possibly truly know the answer to this unless we do studies on live fetuses which would be considered unethical.
Also I think it is bogus to claim risks of pain medication for baby on the mother. The risks of the abortion are far higher.
Quote:
I'd love to see this backed up.
I am not going to even bother. The information that you just quoted is all speculation, anyhow...its not on any well controlled studies on unborn baby's.
I am not anti-abortion, don't care to have it made illegal, etc.... What I do care about is being humane and also giving people REAL information. Often that means information that is speculation because you cannot really do controlled studies on fetuses. There is also a risk to abortion. The risks of general anesthesia are 1/10,000 as far as morbidity/mortality goes. That is what is quoted in informed consent for surgeries at the hospital. As far as twilight sleep, etc...that risk is even lower but I don't have the exact statistic.
The risk of general anesthesia to the mom/patient is often from the intubation and some people have an unknown lack of something (an enzyme I believe) that metabolizes whatever meds they use to suppress your breathing. But I don't know what that stat is either. Its pretty rare.
As far as everything else for anything late term they typically give potassium chloried injection to the baby to stop its heart before the abortion is performed.
Another update ,fetal pain study.
You would believe this crap. 
