(Promised I'd post a topic for you all in the "whining" thread, lol)

I know I have asked this question of others before but it slipped my memory (thank you former pot use).

So why do you think Christains freak out about Paganism? I know what my Christain school upbringing has drilled into my head but that's pretty biased I'm sure, as with most everything they taught.

So tell me, why aren't you evil? Why should Christians stop freaking out? You don't have to defend yourself, just tell me (and the lurkers, lol) your thoughts.

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But Jenna, I AM evil.
(couldn't resist)

So yeah, what I was taught (and actually believed at one time ) is that anyone who does not worship the One True God of the Bible is really worshipping Satan, even if that person does not believe in Satan. They are just "deceived" and must be shown the "truth" before they die and are sent to "burn in the fires of hell". Interestingly, a lot of Christians seem to think that even other Christians are "deceived" and many sects call other sects "false Christians" or not Christians at all.

The concept of "the Devil" seems to have its basis in the last couple of centuries BCE. He is first mentioned in his most commonly accepted aspect in the book of Wisdom. Before that he was merely a questioner, sometimes even described as a spirit sent by God. Jewish authorities quickly latched on to the idea of this "evil" purveyor of a "fiery Hell". It was easy to adopt the many demons of other religions, keep the idea of them as tormentors, and put them all under Satan's rule and care. Now there was a good reason for the evil in the world and no need to take personal responsibility.

It was common long before Roman times to accuse anyone who did not share religious, political or philisophical views as being evil and besotted with demons. Romans, especially, made this popular. Rumors of Jews killing and eating babies abounded. The same rumors were spread through Jewish society about the Romans. (Seems as though most of the other rumors about the Romans; eg. Orgies, gladiator-like killing for sport, rape and pillage, were actually true. ) When Christians first sprang up on the scene they were both a threat to Jewish and Roman authority. Christians were quickly denounced and outlawed. They were demonized by both prevailing groups. Christians were said to steal and kill Jewish babies, sacrifice virgins and babies to their false God, perform arcane and evil ceremonies under cover of night to the devil, blaspheme the One True God (or gods to the Romans) drink blood, cause crop failure, cause plagues, curse innocent people and stir up political and civil unrest. (Any of this sound familiar?)

By the third century CE Christianity had spread like wildfire. People were drawn to the message of love and the freedom from the Laws of Moses (and the need to appease so many different gods with so many different and sometimes contradicting demands). They finally had the power and freedom from persecution to begin forming councils and become a driving force in the political arena. They had a chance to do something about the past three centuries of slaughter and persecution. Although against offical policy of the young Church council, many leaders, including Constantine himself, advocated a "turn or burn" kind of attitude. Playing on the common use of demonization already familiar to the people, it was said that it was really the Jews and the Romans (read Pagans) who were in the grip of Satan. With a new (relatively) religion that preached love instead of laws, people seemed to believe that this new religion surely couldn't be the evil one. It became increasingly important, in order to both solidify power and keep civil accord, for the Church to either convert or obliterate all others of differing beliefs.

Now the climate was completely changed. The religion that was superior and had the backing of empirial power was now the desenting and dangerous religion. Christians in high places developed and unnatural fear of Pagans (and Jews and soon of Muslims) as a threat to their power base and the peace they were "trying" to establish. Christians in the common populace were taught to fear Pagans (and Jews and soon Muslims) as a threat to their religious and social lives and their eternal souls. Heretics began to be treated worse than theives and murderers as the Church released the statement that these "evil liars are stealing not just our goods here on earth but our eternal goods in glorious heaven, how much more of a crime is that?"
So now, not only were Pagans supposedly doing all the things that early Christians were once accused of, they were now destroying the Everlasting Afterlife! Robbing "innocent" Christians of an eternity of reward in Heaven!!!

The upcropping of breakaway sects from the Church caused even more trouble, as these new believers were labeled heretics and, you guessed it, Pagans. As the new Protestentism took hold in many countries, it used the Catholic adaptation of some of the Pagan ways as ammunition in the fight for who was right. Again the Pagans were demonized in the rift (as had happened when Rome split from Constantinople).

The various Inquisitions, while intended to stem the tide of senseless and killing and lynchings, only proved to further these practices the farther one got from Rome. While many Inquisitors were sincere and "just" others used the power given by Rome to advance politically and crush their enemies. The brunt of the abuse seemed to be heaped on breakaway sects and Jews. Moorish influence from Africa and Muslim influence from the Holy Land was also targeted. In many towns and villages, the coming of the Inquisitor Courts was a terrifying concept as people scrambled to find "someone" guilty that would appease the Courts' sense of duty and send them on their way before too much havoc was wrought. Sometimes these people would be found in the enemies of the prevailing bishops, sometimes in simple people who were following practices that had been followed since time immemorial and often even sanctioned by the local parishes. Soon everything was looked at askance. While the Inquisitions themselves did not target Pagans, healers, fortune tellers and midwives, it fueled the imaginations and questions of several different governing religions.

The largest consequences for Pagans of the Inquisitions were the rampant witch hunts and vampire scares of the 17th and 18th centuries in Germany and the Austro-Hungarian empire. Not only were thousands of innocent lives taken based on little to no evidence, tens of thousands of graves were desecrated in the desperate search for the source of vampire epidemics. The Church and the Protestant sects both had specially trained officials who's only job was to find witches and/or vampires. (Think about it, if they didn't find any, they weren't doing thier jobs. .......) It finally slowed down and began to die out with a law passed by Empress Maria-Theresa of the House of Hapsburg. The Church did not change its official stance on the issue until the close of the 19th century. Even then the Protestant teachings have not altered, though the practices are now condemned.

It seems common practice that any once-powerful group that has lost its standing gets blamed for all manner of evils and wrongs. We see this even in our modern world. Up until just a few decades ago (and still in less politically correct circles) the "Japs" or the "Godless Commies" have been blamed for nearly every economic downturn or national security concern.

Most Pagans today practice a mix of folk healing (learned and handed down by people who, for the most part, would have considered themselves Christians) and the old Pagan religions. Both of these, as I have stated, have been demonized by the Church and other Christian sects since almost the beginning. Like slavery and women's rights, there is a lot of history and false teachings to overcome. It is only now becoming such and issue as more and more people are coming to the forefront and declaring themselves openly as Pagan. The education process has just begun for us.

I can't say why *I* am not evil. Evil is based on opinion. In *my* opinion I am not evil. I was told as a Christian that I was evil, and I have been told as a Pagan that I am evil. *shrug* It means very little to me anymore. I live my life as I see fit and try to think of others as much as possible without turning myself into a doormat. I don't try to convert anyone. That would be absurd to me. I don't *know* that I am right, so how can I tell other people that what they believe is wrong? I love my children. I love and am faithful to (by mutual consent) my husband. I volunteer when health and time permits it. I care for my pets and have them fixed so as to not contribute to the overpopulation of unwanted pets. I recycle. I do my best to conserve energy. I vote (usually Republican--Veeery un-Paganlike ) I don't believe that anyone's religion, sexuality or political philosophies are anyone else's business, nor should it be their concern. I respect that their are people who's religions state otherwise and my only course of action for that is my vote to keep Church and State seperate in the USA. If I'm evil in someone's eyes for all of that, so be it.

Great question, Jenna! (pssst--are you still awake? )

Believe it or not, I read all of that! I might have been in a daze somewhere in the middle with a paragraph but I think the begining and the ending were the most important parts anyway, lol.

I get it, I really do. I totally get the "if it ain't Christian, it's the devil" attitude. I think the reasons for Pagans being sinful was because of Halloween, and the pentagram??? I'm just realizing my memory of the smoke being blown up my *** is fading, lol.

You sound much more un-sinful than I... I didn't spay and neuter my cats... sniff. Are you sure you don't sacrifice small animals or dance naked, filled with demons? Quija board on the dinning room table? If I wake up bleeding or something, I'm going to accuse you of putting a satanic curse on me!

I wish I could comment more... my brain is hurting too much from all that info... THAT I DID READ, lol. I'll have to come back later

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**Oh, Great Dark Gods of the Netherworld....I beseech thee to strike Jenna with the curse of 1,000 kittens for her sin of not neutering her cats!**

Just a little Pagan humor.

I know that was a lot to read. Sorry. I tend to get long winded sometimes.

I know the pentacle is considered to be a symbol of the devil (will have to do more research on it). One of my wedding rings is a pentacle and I have had several people comment on it as such. I simply reply that it is an earth symbol and stands for the elements of earth, air, fire, water and spirit. In fact the part of the ceremony when dh and I exchanged these rings our vows were, "Through earth and air (touching the ring to the tip of the thumb and first finger), through fire and water (touching the ring to the tip of the middle and ring finger), I bind my spirit to yours (slipping the ring on the pinky, where we wear them now). This was done by a Christian (Methodist) minister.

As for Hallowe'en (or Samhain [pronounced--SAH' wen) I could write another post like the last one, or longer, but I'll spare you. lol I just say that it is a mix of Germanic, Druidic and Catholic traditions that have brought it to its present day representation of evil. Yes, there were some religions (Pagan) that did offer blood sacrifices at the end of the last harvest season. There were also grain and food sacrifices, depending on the religion and even sometimes on the particular village. The day of October 31 was not really nailed down until the Church Nov. 1 All Saint's Day. Today's Halloween traditions come mainly from the 1930's or 40's. The only thing in common with ancient rites is dressing up, which is now done for a very different reason. It used to be done so that the souls that were able to cross between the world would not recognize family that had come to pay their respects and leave food offerings. A soul that followed a family member back home would become trapped in the physical world and not be able to return until the next year. In the mean time, the "ghost" would haunt the family and neighbors and was said to cause illness, bad luck, and cause a poor harvest.

See....even a short explaination started to get long winded. I'm so bad.

If you curse me with 1,000 kittens, I'll be sure to take up "voodoo" and give you 24/7 labor pain or something... err, yah.

Back when I was in Jr. High, I saw a woman selling beads and pentagrams in the mall. I told my friend or whoever I was with that the pentagrams were satanic. She told me they weren't and offered some sort of explanation. As you can tell, I don't remember things very long, lol.

I am very curious as to why we feel pentagrams are bad. I know the ones with the goats in them HAVE to be bad, right?

And rituals scare the living pee out of me... I guess many things could be refered to as rituals... like communion. That's supposed to involve blood even, lol. Praying before food is ritual-like. Oh, I forgot to mention that your wedding sounded ritual-like (like some weddings aren't filled with rituals?) and that is what prompted this whole paragraph in the first place.

How I view these things probably all root from your first post and the old churches and governments though.

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Alot of people recognize the Lord (God) as a horned male. Representing both humans and animals.

Like the Christian religion, the Satanic religion adapted alot of Pagan traditions. Just like the Satanics taking the cross and turning it upside down to make it impure, they did the same with the pentacle. The sigil of Baphomet (Satanic horned creature) has a double circle with an upside down pentacle and Baphomet in the middle. The simple inverted pentacle is not a specific symbol of any religion, but focuses on the material world and earthly desires and is not seen as good or evil.

About rituals.. EVERYTHING can be seen as a ritual. What parents do at night to get their children to bed (i.e take a bath, dry off & lotion, put jama's on, and read a story) is a ritual. Church mass is a Ritual, they follow a certain order, though the sermon, hyms, etc. change.. The order of things is still always the same. Baptism, holidays (if you have traditions in your family.. its a ritual).

http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?bo...ituals&x=0&y=0

Really nothing to be afraid of Unless you are a spontaneous person and hate the same ol' same ol' routine of everything!

Of course I would be afraid of a Satanic ritual LOL.

I really appreciate your openess in learning about different religions. Alot of people are so close minded about it because they are scared. They've learned that they are bad and evil and thats all they want to believe about them.

Hey welcome to the boards.

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Lovekitten27,

First of all, sorry it took me so long to get back to this post.

So am I getting this confused... you said pentacal, I said pentagram. Are they the same thing or is the pentagram what you call a upside down pentacle? I really never noticed the difference between the two... thought they were one in the same. Perhaps it's hard to distiguish a upturned star vs. a regular star?

Speaking of evil logo type things.... in Christian school we weren't allowed to wear or display the peace symbol. They said it was because the peace symbol is actually a broken cross. Now in my adult years, I imaging the symbolism of the broken cross representing peace is because of religion being the main cause of war and other crappy non-peacefull events. What do you think? I ask because there is a Lutheran church down the road that uses the peace symbol as part of their churches logo as they are "Peace Lutheran". It bothers me to know they haven't a clue what the peace symbol really is but then again I started questioning my own knowledge of it as certainly I can't trust what I was told considering the sorce

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