Hi Ladies--I know I haven't been around much! Congrats to all the new babies and all the new pregnancies! Seems like there have been a lot.

Anyway, to the point of my thread...

I'm one of those people who others feel comfortable confiding in... always have been the person who friends will just randomly tell secrets to, etc. So in the past little while, I've had three friends get engaged who either they or their fiancee's (or both) have had pre-marital sex. It's really gotten me thinking about others I know in similar situations, etc. and it makes me absolutely worried about what I'm going to teach my children and how. Now, in these specific situations, they have all repented and these will all be temple marriages. How are kids supposed to see the difference between not having sex at all and having sex, repenting, and getting the same blessings?? Or is there a difference? That's where my understanding of repentance starts getting questioned... I mean, Heavenly Father doesn't see a difference, right? Doesn't he make it so it's like you didn't sin at all? When I've spoken with friends about it, the ones who have waited are glad they did, but can't really express why... the ones who didn't wait are sad that they didn't, but again, can't express why. Obviously I also know people (mostly girls) where even after repentance, their lives are never the same--i.e. girls who got pregnant... but there are also so many times that if you look at the here and now, there seems to be no difference in situations.

I'm not asking for personal stories or anything like that... I'm just... I don't know... frustrated I guess because I just don't see the difference and I don't know where to even begin when I'm trying to teach my own children about this some day. Any thoughts?

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HMMM ... I had premarital sex, got married, then became active and two years later went to the temple. For me, I wouldn't have done it any other way. It was what was right for me. If I had to make those decisions now? I would wait. But then, I don't think that Erik and I would have met and married had we been living any other life, and I don't want to change that. KWIM?

Now, on what to tell my daughter . . . that it is smarter to wait. That I didn't, and it worked out, but there are a lot of examples in our family of times that it didn't work out. But, I also want to have a relationship with her that if she is struggling with that decision, she will come to me to talk about it so I can help her make the right decision. That is where I am freaked out. How do I find that balance? My sister had it with her girls, but even as close as my mom and I were, I didn't go to her, I went to my sister. Tori doesn't have a sister to go to.

I believe that if you repent, you are forgiven, and righteous in the Lords eyes . . . therefore you should be in everyone elses eyes as well. I don't know. I agree with you. It is a tough decision. I hope that someone else has better insight than I.

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Well I know you didn't ask for personal stories but I don't know how else to explain it. I was similar to Lou. Dh and I had both had sex with 2 other people before meeting each other. Dh also had sex with 2 other girls after me, when we were just starting to "date", because neither of us really saw that we would end up with each other, so he didn't think he was "cheating" or anything, just "dating around". I would do anything to go back and undo all of that. The boys I was with did not deserve me, but at the time I was so desparate for love and affection and attention, and I didn't know how else to get it. In the end, I got rejection and it was never anywhere near love, but it seemed to suit my needs at the time. As I got older I began to realize how confused I was about what love is and how to respect yourself and demand respect from those who want to be worthy enough to have your interest. If only I had just stayed away from boys until I had a grasp on that concept! Now I have to forever think about the fact that 2 other worthless boys got that special part of me that no one else should have had. Imagine at this point in my life if I were ever to run into either of them!

And as for dh--one of the biggest problems in our marriage is how much our bedroom life has changed. Dh likes to refer to it as "false advertising." Because when I met him, I was wild, living on my own at 16, no rules, totally carefree. Because of that I was willing to do certain things that I will not do now, and I also was more adventurous as far as doing things in public places, which I wouldn't even consider right now! So to dh, I am now pretty boring. And because of his promescuity, I have to live with the fact that he has also been with other girls, and because of dirty mags and other things stupid boys look at, he has a very warped sense of sex and what is and should be like. After constantly reading in Play Boy about women who can't get enough of it, he wants to know why he has the broken wife who doesn't want it at all. The way women describe how they want to be treated in bed, like be roughed around with and talked dirty to and all that, he has it in his head that "normal" women like that, when in reality, it's probably a man that wrote that article, or a nympho! His perception of women and what they want is totally messed up because of the false impressions of magazines and other women willing to give it up so easily.

So to answer your question, sure, God may forgive you and make it like it never happened. But that does not undo that damage that has been done, it does not repair the false impressions, it doesn't erase the images and memories, it doesn't change the attitude. You have to do that yourself, and it is darn near impossible! I keep waiting for the day that someone shows up on our doorstep with a kid that they claim dh fathered. I don't think of it often, but when I do, it makes me ill! Can you imagine what that would do to our "eternal family"? I would be sick! And both of us are lucky to come out of the deal with no STD's! Those are the reasons people should wait! Why put yourself thrugh all this? I look at my siblings in in-laws, as spouses, they have a totally different kind of respect and love for each other. It kills me every time I go to a new sealing in the temple, that could have been me, it SHOULD have been me. My mother didn't explain any of this. She basically forbid boys, well, look how that turned out. I was never shown any love or attention at home so I went and got it elsewhere.

o not let that happen to your children! Teach them WHY to wait and what the outcome might be if they don't. It is not good enough to just tell them they aren't allowed. It's not enough to use just pregnancy and STD's as a reason not to, those can be prevented and headstrong teenagers think they are invincible to those things anyway! They must understand that there are emotional consequences and burdens they will carry with them for the rest of their lives! They might not end up with the person they slept with, maybe they will straighten out and end up with someone who hasn't had sex. And that person will think they can handle it, until after they are married, and see what sex is all about, and then it will really hurt them that their spouse has been with someone else. Why would you want to have to answer for that some day? Just prevent it in the first place! KWIM?

And Lou, I really hope this does not offend you, I don't mean any disrespect to you and the choices you have made, but I have to say something about your statement that it worked out ok for you. In church a few weeks ago we were talking about this and there were a few ladies who said pretty much the same thing, some of them had been divorced, and for other reasons they made comments about how they didn't follow the right path but they wouldn't take it back because then they wouldn't have their kids, or be with that spouse, etc. I totally get where that comment comes from, BUT--if you didn't have your kids, or weren't with that spouse, HOW WOULD YOU KNOW???? If I had stayed on the right path, I might be married to someone right now who respects in the way that I mentioned earlier, and maybe he wouldn't have some of the qualities that I like about dh, but maybe he would have other ones that I did like. And maybe we would have totally different kids then the ones I have now, but HOW WOULD I KNOW? It's not like I'd have any clue! And I wouldn't be living with the feelings and regrets and fears that I have and I wouldn't have had to taken a long and difficult path back to the church. It's a lot easier to fight little temptations as they come along and stay on the right path, then it is to get on the wrong one and have to fight your way back, it's a never ending battle to overcome the things that have changed me and I could have prevented all of it. So I am not saying that I ended up with the wrong dh and the wrong children, of course I love my family more than anything and now that I have them would not give them up for any reason! But had I done things differently, there may have been a different outcome, a different family, and I can't say now that I wouldn't change anything because I wouldn't have my kids, because as I said, I wouldn't even know that I didn't have them, or maybe I would have them but it would have been a different dh, or maybe I still would have had the same dh but our relationship would have been different. I hope that made sense and didn't offend anyone, I just don't want to encourage anyone to think that they should go ahead and have sex because it works out just fine for some people! Think of a teenager that gets pregnant. Most likely, 5 years from now, she will say the same thing--she wishes she had made better choices but wouldn't give her child up for anything. Well, if she had made the right choices, she wouldn't have a child and wouldn't KNOW that she didn't have a child!! So I just don't justify the wrong path by saying it all worked out in the end. Sorry if you don't like that answer, it's how I feel though and it's come up enough times recently that I had to say something. HTH

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Gosh, I worry about this too. Another thing to think about...my good friend who is still single told me there is a trend of young LDS couples who have had sex already getting married in the temple without repenting first. She said marrying in the temple is a 'status symbol' so some people she knows are getting married there whether they have waited or not or repented or not. I guess then later down the road they confess this to their bishop... I think this is so sad.

Anyway my friend, who has always been a very strong, moral person, says lately she's been thinking premarital sex "isn't a big deal," and she doesn't see the point in waiting anymore. I was so sad when I heard this. She asked me why I thought she should wait and I gave her a few reasons (STDs, pregnancy, its more special, etc, etc) but she didn't think any of those were good reasons. Like you said, lots of people can do it and 'get away' with it. She's at BYU so she has heard the chastity talk, even from some general authorities, a milllion times, but she still doesn't see a point.

I did wait (and so did Dh) and I hope my kids will see us as an example. I guess I will teach them that waiting is the Lord's plan for us and I know when we follow his commandments, things work out for the best and we are happy.

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Christine I would tell your friend everything I just said, and also, that anyone who is having sex and getting married in the temple any way is taking a huge gamble. What if they break up before getting to the temple? No one should be so arrogant as to assume that they know for 100% without a doubt that their partner will not leave them after they've had sex. (And as some say, why pay for the cow if you're getting the milk for free? I would imagine a lot of people that do that end up not getting married, because they are already getting all the benefits, so why bother!?!) I also don't understand how anyone could go to the temple knowing that they should not be there, I'd fear lightning if I had pre-marital sex and went to the temple w/o repentance! If they don't agree to ALL of God's commandments, that makes it seem like they don't believe in the religion as a whole, so bother with it!?? God's "rules" aren't there for us to pick and choose the ones we agree with, it's sort of an all or nothing package. If you don't see a reason to bother with the law of chastity, then why bother with any of it? Also tell your friend Oprah's motto: "When in doubt, DON'T". I seriously doubt that she has a warm fuzzy peaceful feeling that she should have sex. She may not see a PROBLEM with it, but I can't imagine for a second that she has a deep conviction that it's the right thing to do! So why do it? This is how I look at things now--If it won't hurt me NOT to, then I'm not going to. For example:

Could you get hurt if you smoke? Possibly. Would your life be any worse off if you smoke? Probably. Could you get hurt if you DON'T smoke? NO! Will your life be any worse off without smoking NO!

Could you get hurt (emotionally) if you watch an R movie? Possibly. Would your life be any worse off if you watch it? Probably. Could you get hurt if you DON'T watch it? NO! Will your life be any worse off without watching it? NO!

Could you get hurt if you drink alcohol? Possibly. Would your life be any worse off if you drink it? Probably. Could you get hurt if you DON'T drink it? NO! Will your life be any worse off without drinking it? NO!

Could you get hurt if you have premarital sex? Possibly. Would your life be any worse off if you have premarital sex? Probably. Could you get hurt if you DON'T do it? NO! Will your life be any worse off without doing it? NO!

See where I am going? Take the sure bet in life! There is a chance that nothing bad would happen if you break some of the rules we've been given, but it's a very small chance. There is a very BIG chance that breaking some of the rules we have been given would greatly impact your life and others, for the worse! You may not see it now, but anyone with half a brain knows that they won't be any worse off for following the rules, but they may be worse off for breaking them! So if anything, if you are feeling like you should go ahead and try sex, you can always do it later! It won't kill you to think about it really hard, pray about your decision, ask other people how they feel and the reasons they made what choices and the after math of their choices. Think about how it could impact you in the long run if you do or don't. I know in my heart that God would never confirm someone's desire to break one of these laws, so if they really believe in this church, they will know that they should not be doing these things. And if they still feel like they should, what's the difference between trying it today or waiting a week? Why not wait and do some thinking about it and see if you still feel the same after thinking and talking to others? If someone isn't mature enough to do that, they aren't mature enough to handle the consequences that could come with their actions!

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Yup...DH said that when he was at UVSC, the girsl he dated were, uh..skanky..for lack of a better word. He said that not all girls slept around, but alot he knew did, and that they were marrying in the temple like a month later. My BIL's ex-girlf got married in the Temple last October, they two of them had sex and he *knows* that she did not repent before getting married, and he's pretty sure she didn't tell her DH before getting married either.

I think that out here in Utah, it's more prevelant to have girls and guys having sex and then getting married in the temple w/o repenting. Out here, I've noticed at least, that if you don't get married in the Temple...then you are sorrta looked down upon. At my home ward in Michigan, if you didn't get married in the temple, no big deal. You obviously had some reason. I think that's one of the big differences between the members here and in other parts of the country.

As for me....I'm going to simply tell my kids that it's important to wait, but that if they don't I want them to come talk to me. I want to have trust with my kids. I had that with my parents. They weren't really strict and I think I turned out okay. I saw how my friends whos parents were way strict ended up. They were the ones out drinking and having sex. They rebeled, but my sister and I never had a reason to.

It's a tough issue, and hopefully I know exactly what to say when the time comes.

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Thank you for your thoughts, Michelle. Those are some very valid points. I'll pass them along to her when it comes up again.

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I actually think that alot do break up before getting married. Recently several girls I work with were all married in the Temple. We were talking and they told me that at teh SLC temple you are not allowed to take your endowments out more thatn 2 weeks before your wedding date. I had never heard this rule before an dassume it is in effect at SLC b/c couples were getting engaged, going thru the temple, and then calling off the wedding. I assume that if a girl wasn't married she wouldn't want to wear the garments anymore. Honestly....if that had happened to me....I probably wouldn't have worn them either. How sad that they actually had to make a "rule" about it.

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It's actually one week, and that has been the rule at least since 4 years ago, I don't know how long before that. The bigger issue is not the garments, but the fact that your fiance is involved in the process, and it would be weird to end up with a different dh after going through the temple with another!

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I went through the temple about a month before I got married so I could go to one of my best friends wedding. When Dh and I got married we did the whole "couple" thing just before our ceremony. But this was more than 7 years ago so that's interesting they'd make the rule about it now.

Anyway...I've always had a little trouble wrapping my mind around the idea of those who "party hard" in their early years and then repent later and have all the same blessings I worked my butt off the keep while growing up. I just have to remind myself that I'm lucky I didn't have to go through what they did to get where they are AND that God really know the intentions of our heart no matter what facade we put on the outside for the world to see.

I can't imagine how those going to the temple without having repented could feel good about that! I didn't go to the temple for almost 2 years because I didn't have a church calling and didn't want one and therefore knew I wasn't fullfilling the terms of being a worthy temple go'er but that's nothing to premartial sex etc.

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Shabs
Christopher 4-01
Connor 5-03
Kaitlee 9-06

Brooke and Brennon 11-99

Yes, the reason to have the time limit btwn the endowment and the wedding is not the garments...it is so that a fiance who didn't become a husband didn't end up knowing something about you that only a husband should know (yes, I'm being vague on purpose. Those who have ears to hear and all that...)

As far as the other question: you may be able to repent and partake of temple and other blessings but the blessing of never having sinned will not be yours, KWIM? Like Michelle said, you can repent and take the right path but there are some consequences that are harder to remove than others. Plus, it isn't easy to repent. It's a very tough road. And wouldn't you rather be putting your energies somewhere else?

Everybody ought to have a good understanding of that! Commandments aren't rules that you find loopholes to--they are literally God saying, "I have a better perspective on this and this is how you ought to live in order to avoid the pitfalls of life and be happier in the end." "Getting away with it" might seem to bring worldly happiness, but you'll just end up in the pitfalls that God was trying to help you avoid. Plus if you are married in the temple unworthily the Holy Spirit won't seal it and it'll be pretty worthless in the next life. Of course those folks are only thinking about this life so I guess they got what they were looking for, KWIM?

Marianne

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I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Yes, it happened to work out for me, but it usually doesn't . . . my family is the prime example of it . . . I have three siblings that have gotten married because they were pregnant, and are now divorced . . . I have three nieces that have children and are single because of their choices . . . and I have a mom that was in an abusive marriage because she got pregnant before getting married. Now, if I could go back and do something differently, with the knowledge that I have now, I would choose differently. Although I do not regret my decision, because I like who I am now, and where I am now. Does that make sense? Probably not . . . . . . but oh well.

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Yes it does! Saying you would do it different, but you like where you are now, is kind of what I was looking for. I think my thoughts are coming from the fact that at the end of the RS meeting in which this was discussed, the message clearly seemed to be that several ladies didn't care that they made some wrong choices, in fact they seemed to be advocating it, because they came out of the deal with children they love, and they didn't seem to recognize that there could have been a better outcome. So I felt concerned that they left the impression on the YM that were there, that it doesn't really matter if you screw up as long as you eventually do what you are supposed to. I just wanted to make sure no one reading this got that same impression. There are long term consequnces, even after one straightens out, and we also never know when the end of our life will come, and we may not have straightened out before that happens. I just want other young girls to realize that even if something seems funner in the moment, it just isn't in the long run, and staying righteous will pay off so much more in the end!

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I had premarital sex but it was with my husband. My husband wasn't a member when we met and I personally wanted to have sex even though he knew my convictions and what not. We were engaged later and we also became pregnant about 3 months before we got married, and it was "on purpose".

My husband had been with one other person before we got together and many time through our marriage it bothered me that I hadn't gotten to "try" at least one other person. I have 3 siblings who have all had premarital sex, 2 of which because they have fallen away from the church and the other I don't really know why but I know she was with 2 guys before her husband. So part of me felt gyped, as bad as that sounds!!

When thing got really rough in our marriage I started to seek out other friendships and I found a really great guy who just knew all the right things that I wanted to hear. We both literally fell in love and I ended up having an affair, and one of the main reasons was because I wanted the experience that I felt cheated out of. ((yes I know this all sounds horrible)) It was a horrible experience as he wasn't nearly as good as my husband is.

My husband and I are still working things out and our marriage is getting better and stronger, but for me personally I think I should have had at least one experience before my husband and maybe I wouldn't have done what I did. I don't know if this is completely true but it's kind of how I feel.

I know my Dh and I have talked about the "what if's" and our children. Like what if one of the girls comes to us and says she is pregnant or one of our son's tells us that he got a girl pregnant or if one of them comes to us and tell us they are gay. SO we've practice talked about these subjects.

As for other WOW things it's interesting from my POV. I watched my parents screw my one sister up the wazoo! They felt like since they did a lot of stuff that they had no right to make us do what they did.

My mom was mormon and my dad not. They had premarital sex and conceived me and were kind of forced into a marriage. Growing up we all felt like they weren't good together even though they kept telling us they were happy etc etc. Well last year after 29 years of marriage they finally got the divorce we all wanted them to have.

My dad converted about a year after I was born and even went on to become a Bishop at one point. (We all laughed when it was announced, thinking it was a joke because we knew him better I guess)

Well I don't know what I am really trying to say. DH and I agree about teaching them all there is to know about sex, we can teach the principles of the WOW and the gosple and just hope and pray that they make the right decision but we both know that in the end that it is their decision to make in the end and theyw ill have to deal witht he consequences as they come.

((sorry I'm not making much sense))

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Well see I too never had premarital sex... But I was taught that sex is a special thing that should be saved to give only when the person you love, has shown you the greatest devotion of love by marring you. I was also taught that this is the one thing that I have control of, and once I give it I can never get it back… There was not one person that I felt deserved it… The one that did… I married him!

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I've been thinking about the issue you presented about people repenting and getting the same blessings as those who kept the commandments all along ... I recently read "Following Christ" by Stephen E. Robinson, and there's a few pages dealing -- I think that's where much of my perspective is coming from. :-) (Great book, by the way).

Just like the faithful son in the parable of the Prodigal Son, those who have always kept the commandments may wonder why others get to sow their wild oats, run amok, have fun for a few months or years, and then return to an elaborate the feast at their father's table (because it is true that if a person repents, they will still be saved in the kingdom of God as though the sin hadn't happened). But it doesn't seem FAIR. Why do they get to "have their cake and eat it, too?"

But there's a flaw in that thinking, and it's that "wickedness never was happiness" (Alma 41:10). There is no true joy in breaking God's commandments. It may seem fun, but it is appealing to the natural side of us, not our true self.

I am certainly no expert, but maybe the key comes in teaching our children to love and cherish the things of the spirit so the things of the world are not so appealing. It is a hard principle to teach in this day and age, for sure.

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