What does this have to do with what we are talking about???
Yes, it was Mary's role to give birth to Jesus. She DID NOT create Him!
We, as females, give birth. John the Baptist, as well as many other men, were preaching Jesus to all who would listen. They were the spiritual leaders! Matthew, do you want your future wife to be your spiritual leader? do you think that YOU should be giving birth to your children? we have different roles!
God commands older women to teach younger women, not teaching men.
those are just examples of our differences.
You know what bothers me about all of this? Over and over again, some of you have been suggesting that if we have seperate roles, then we are somehow less important to God. that is complete nonsense.

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No but without her it wouldnt have happened. God had to use a womb to get Jesus into the world and he chose Mary. Jesus had to born thru a woman, we are all created by God but are all born thru a woman (tho everyone else has an input by man). You cannot understate Mary's role in the birth of Christ, neither can you overstate it. All of Jesus DNA came from the woman.

My point is that if woman is inferior, why is man (the supposed supreme being) not used in this at all. You cant deny man had no part in Christs birth. God did use Joseph but not to the same extent as Mary.

Basically what im saying is that women are meant to be equal and are in the eyes of God. I do apologise if i upset or annoy anyone, i dont want to/mean to.

If God said to my wife "be a spiritual leader" then yes, fine by me. Who am i to say no to God? Woman was never meant to be inferior, ruled by, dominated or submitted to man. It was a consequence of sin, a prediction by God of what would happen, not Gods will. If God said to a woman, you've to be an elder/spiritual leader in your church, man has got no right to say no, not happening, but because woman is believed to be in this position it has happened and still does.

I will stop here on this.

God bless,

Matthew

Matthew, read through the book of Matthew again. I'm sure you've read that book before!
anyway, look at all of the ways that Joseph was used.
I really do not see your point about Mary at all. I'm wondering if you got your info from a Catholic reference?

here I went ahead and found these verses. God lead Joseph over and over again. and Joseph LEAD Mary.
chapter 1
20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”
24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son.[e] And he called His name JESUS.
chapter 2
13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.”
14 When he arose, he took the young Child and His mother by night and departed for Egypt, 15 and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”[b]

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Matthew, God will NOT go against His word and tell your wife to be the spiritual leader in your family. I promise you this. He doesn't go against His word.

Yes, no one has said that women are not equally important to God. But, how can you read the Bible and say that we are supposed to have equal roles?
Jesus actually brought more dignity to women in that time & culture and they were treated better from His teachings. (read John 4)

I wonder if some of you have a warped view of what submission is. Is it bad for us to submit to Christ? of course not. so, why when someone says something about submitting to our husband does everyone flip out? Mary submitted to Joseph many times.

The Virtuous Wife
10 Who[b] can find a virtuous[c] wife?
For her worth is far above rubies.
11 The heart of her husband safely trusts her;
So he will have no lack of gain.
12 She does him good and not evil
All the days of her life.
13 She seeks wool and flax,
And willingly works with her hands.
14 She is like the merchant ships,
She brings her food from afar.
15 She also rises while it is yet night,
And provides food for her household,
And a portion for her maidservants.
16 She considers a field and buys it;
From her profits she plants a vineyard.
17 She girds herself with strength,
And strengthens her arms.
18 She perceives that her merchandise is good,
And her lamp does not go out by night.
19 She stretches out her hands to the distaff,
And her hand holds the spindle.
20 She extends her hand to the poor,
Yes, she reaches out her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of snow for her household,
For all her household is clothed with scarlet.
22 She makes tapestry for herself;
Her clothing is fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates,
When he sits among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
And supplies sashes for the merchants.
25 Strength and honor are her clothing;
She shall rejoice in time to come.
26 She opens her mouth with wisdom,
And on her tongue is the law of kindness.
27 She watches over the ways of her household,
And does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children rise up and call her blessed;
Her husband also, and he praises her:
29 “ Many daughters have done well,
But you excel them all.”
30 Charm is deceitful and beauty is passing,
But a woman who fears the LORD, she shall be praised.
31 Give her of the fruit of her hands,
And let her own works praise her in the gates.

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My final word on this. Im not saying that Joseph was not used by God, im saying that in the actual part of the birth of Christ, man did not contribute.
The DNA was all woman, 100%.

Quite agree Jesus lifted the image of the woman well above where it was before he came. He came to redeem the position of woman as well as man. However women should not be given a role and then be stuck there. The first evangelist in the entire world was a woman, the first person to get the revelation that Jesus was the messiah was a woman. Whilst men were struggling to come to the believe that Jesus had risen after the 3 days, women were already believing and spreading the word.

It depends what meaning of submission you use

Link to website http://www.icwhp.org/definitions.htm

Im not actually saying we should have equal roles, im saying that we should be equal. However i have no problem with a woman teaching, guiding me whatever. Suppose it depends on what you mean by spiritual leader?

I do pray that there is no problem between us. I dont like getting into these discussions in case they get out of hand and/or people get offended. No matter what is said here i completely respect your point of view and how you get it across.

God bless,

Matthew

still don't understand this at all...
what does dna have to do with it? did her dna make Him God? no, He was already God! He was with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego in the firery furnance long before Mary was around.

but, anyway, no I don't think there are any hard feelings between us, at least not on my end. I have had a light tone in this thread, hopefully it came across that way.
I really am trying to sort out some of the things you said because I don't see how they relate to our command from God, "Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord."

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God didnt need to use Marys womb, He chose to. Mary hadn't been in relations at this point so she hadn't been "tainted" by the sperm seed

God doesn't want anyones wives to be the spiritual leader. Some women are but they are earnestly praying for their husbands to assume that role. A woman can be in any position they want but it doesn't make it right and it will never been satisfying to the depths of the soul.

I get the feeling that some people feel it is demeaning not to be an equal. I suppose that is influenced by feminists and humanists. I have no problem not being equal to my husband. He isn't the same as me in any aspect except we both needed a Saviour. It doesn't make me less of a person but in a way I feel more valuable because my husband isn't complete without me. He needs my encouragement love and respect. He needs me to honor him and help him. I need him in big ways too. Together we are completed, we compliment each other but I am not his equal. He is my leader, my guide, my best friend, my confidont (sp) He makes the decisions and asks for my opinion but the final decision is his and I dont try to question it. I used to and life was unhappy. If I was his equal then I would have equal say and we would be out of balance. God designed marriage in the most perfect way, but it through the foolishness of pride and lack of bibilical understanding that women try to be where they dont belong and it keeps people from where God wants them to be. Gods marriage is the same blue print for everyone but people really need to stop trying to change where the walls go, It creates a less than perfect home and the foundation isn't always stable either.

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Amanda: Mom of 5 beautiful kiddos. We are a non-vaxing, unschooling, homechurching, and farming family. We are unique and love every minute of it

Expecting #6 on June 28th 2007

forgot to add:
In John 1 we are shown that Jesus is the creator of the universe.

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