TKeys

jewel_13 · #1 (**permalink**) 04-12-2008, 02:05 PM

Hi -quick question sort of with the 2x clomid - if clomid tricks your body to think estrogen is low, does it matter I've been taking estradiol since day 5?

today is the 4th pill day of the 2nd round - and with taking the estrogen to help hostile CM i guess i shouldn't rely on ewcm as any indicator (today its pretty ew -sorry for TMI but i'm not done with the meds)

Tkeys · #2 (**permalink**) 04-12-2008, 03:17 PM

That is a good question . . . I know that I was given the estradiol vaginally to build up my lining during my IUI cycles (it is supposed to counteract the negative s/e of Clomid), and I'm taking the estradiol orally now to replace the estrogen that the corpus luteum normally produces, but can fail to do after IVF retrieval (weakening the CL). As I understand, Clomid does not ACTUALLY lower your estrogen levels, but the medicine somehow sticks to the estrogen receptors in the brain and prevents your brain from realizing that you have certain levels of estrogen. In response to believing your estrogen is low, the pituitary starts off a whole chain reaction of hormones . . . fsh, lh, etc., that is supposed to stimulate your ovaries and get the eggs growing.

So, I guess I'm saying that I don't THINK the Clomid actually lowers estrogen, it might raise estrogen . . . I think it just tricks your body, but I'm not 100% sure if that is true. I *think* the Clomid somehow beats the estrogen to the receptors, but I'm not really sure - that would be a good question to ask your doctor. I think I heard that when you take the estrogen vaginally, it goes straight to your uterus, but when you take it orally, it goes to your system. My nurse said that after IVF, I don't need it directly to my lining, just coursing through my system. I'm not sure I understand why, but there it is!

So, I can see your worry that somehow the estrogen supplement is counteracting the Clomid, and I don't have a definite answer for you. I think it depends on if the Clomid can "beat" the estrogen to your brain receptors (and I think it might). It also may depend if you are taking the estrogen vaginally or orally.

Hang in there . . . this process is so frustrating!!

Oh - and you asked about the CM . . . CM was never a reliable sign for me - I could have it for weeks as my estrogen level was going up, and it didn't always mean I was totally ready to O. That isn't true for everyone - I think you are going to have to watch and see what happens for you. However it works this cy, it is likely to work the same way in future cys!

jewel_13 · #3 (**permalink**) 04-12-2008, 09:19 PM

Thanks for the info!! Somewhat amusing

-see which drug gets through faster....... there's a science experiment!

I'll have to write that down to ask him about it all - my memory doesn't always work / for whatever reasons i come up with all the good questions after i leave the RE :p

Tkeys · #4 (**permalink**) 04-13-2008, 08:21 AM

I have that issue, too! But, sometimes I write everything down . . . then forget to bring my questions to the dr.

That doesn't help so much.

jewel_13 · #5 (**permalink**) 04-13-2008, 10:05 AM

:p doesn't help that my mind's messing with me - i'm a big dreamer when i sleep so sometimes i really have to sort out what actually is going on vs. what i dream about

e.g. - i had a dream just last night where i called the RE nurse to schedule b/w and she said i don't need any, so in my dream i told her i must have dreamt needing b/w - so now i'm dreaming w/in dreams - a bit confusing

Leese · #6 (**permalink**) 04-13-2008, 10:29 AM

Julie - Sorry, butting in here. Tkeys is right, the clomid binds to the receptors in the hypothalamus (I think) and your body interprets this as a low estrogen level. In response it makes GnRH, which stimulates the production of FSH and LH. Then there is a whole cascade involving FSH, LH and more estrogen production that has to happen in order for the follicle to be released. Seriously, as complicated as reproduction is both before and after conception, it's amazing that there are as many of us on the planet that there are.

As far as taking estrodiol, I don't know if that would interfere with the clomid. It is an established procedure to supplement clomid patients with estrogen, even though all docs don't do it, since it helps with CM. I guess it depends on whether the receptors in the hypothalamus have a higher affinity for the clomid or estrodiol, which is something I don't know. Hopefully your doc will.

HTH!

jewel_13 · #7 (**permalink**) 04-13-2008, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Leese

Seriously, as complicated as reproduction is both before and after conception, it's amazing that there are as many of us on the planet that there are.

very true............ thanks for the info - at least w/in day i'll find out if this double clomid dose did anything

Tkeys · #8 (**permalink**) 04-13-2008, 11:05 AM

Thanks for butting in, Lisa - that explained it better than I could!! I've always done vaginal supplementation of estradiol pre-O to thicken the lining, so I have no idea how oral estradiol plays into the game.