Hi,

I've read the No Cry Sleep Solution and it seems hopeful to me. But I've yet to start the sleep plan as I have few questions to clarify. Let me describe my situation first, to make it brief i put them in point form.

• My son is 20 weeks old. Since birth he was carried to sleep. And now i need to carry + walk around + sing + rock + pat him to sleep.
• When he was 2+ months old, we started using hammock for his nap, it's easier for him to fall asleep but harder to carry him to sleep at night. (at night he sleeps on his crib)
• normally he only naps for 30 mins. In the hammock he can sleep longer (more than 1 hr), but only once a day. other naps are still 30 mins
• i don't have a nap schedule / routine for him, as i only watch for his sign of tiredness to make him sleep.
• i have a bedtime routine : bath, change pyjamas, milk, storybook, sleep (carry to sleep).
• he used to wake up once, then to twice. i fed him formula when he woke up. He didn't have problem sleeping on his own at that time.
• he sleeps between 7.30 - 8.30pm, sometimes he can sleep thru until 2am (can be earlier, can be later) for milk, sometimes he can wake up few times by 12am and i'll pat him to sleep, if fail i'll carry him.
• 3 weeks ago he started waking up more often even after 12am, sometimes i give him pacifier (he doesn't rely on pacifier to sleep for nap / nightime sleep) and he will slowly doze off, sometimes he doesn't. if he starts crying, i'll make diluted milk for him. he used to drain the bottle, but not these few days. he doesn't finish the milk, sometimes he will cry, sometimes he will sleep.
• he is used to waking up between 6-7am, as i used to breastfeed him last time if he woke up around that time. so now i will bring him to the bed with me and breastfeed him while i continue sleeping, hoping he will sleep as well so that i can sleep longer. i don't have much breastmilk anymore, so he might be just used to the sucking.
• i'm giving him a small pillow as lovey, but he doesn't seem to know how to associate that to "sleep" yet.

My questions :

• i think i have few issues to tackle : lengthen naptime, nap routine, change the way to make him sleep, reduce nightime feeding, teach him to sleep on his own at night, stop his habit to suck at 6-7am. Do i tackle one by one, or have a sleep plan to change everything at once?
• Can i apply the 6 phases of sleep pattern to help him to sleep on his own for nap & nightime sleep? if i apply for nap, it will be going to take longer for him to nap, then he'll be overtired?
• how to establish a nap schedule? even if the baby is not sleepy?
• i hope he won't rely on the pacifier, but sometimes he seems to settle with pacifier. how can i avoid this? he doesn't have the habit of taking the pacifier but i guess he's used to sucking.
• do i use the Pantley's Gentle Removal Plan on the 6-7am sucking as well?
• i'm working on monday, wednesday, friday. my mum helps me to take care when i'm working. i dunno how i can start my plan when i'm not taking care of my son myself.
• regarding your idea on letting the baby play in his crib more often, as i will go to my mum's house during the days when i'm not working (besides him being in my mum's house when i'm working), i'm not sure how to achieve this. there's a crib over there as well with the same mattress, it's juz that the crib is different, can he tell the difference?
• another puzzle that i have : when i carry him to sleep at night, it's quite obvious that he's tired, his eyes are closing, but somehow he still couldn't sleep, and will cry. why is it so?

It's a long list of questions, but need someone to clear my doubt. Thanks alot.

:hi and !!! So glad you've chosen to use this wonderful book!

That's beautiful! What a loving mom you are for being so close to your baby! Dr. Sears (the well-known pediatrician who wrote the forward for NCSS) speaks in support of this very instinctual way to help babies sleep! Here's a link to his website with more information about comforting your baby to sleep and how it teaches baby that sleep is a natural, safe state to enter into:

31 WAYS TO GET YOUR BABY TO GO TO SLEEP AND STAY ASLEEP EASIER

That's so neat! Where did you get a hammock for babies? I've read wonderful things about the Amby bed, is it anything like that?

It can take a while for them to settle into a nap schedule! My younger son didn't really settle into a naptime schedule until he was about 10 months old... whereas my older one had a very clear schedule... and yet I'm the same person who tried to get them to sleep the same way... so it just shows that babies' temperaments really do count when it comes to how they sleep.... we still kept plugging away at developing his nap schedule and eventually it happened, but some take longer than others

I found that for my older son, particularly, that when he actually LOOKED tired, he was actually OVER-tired and this would not only make it hard for him to go to sleep, but he wouldn't have a very good nap. Instead, I would note when he woke for the day and then try to put him down for a nap an hour and a half later... this made me start noticing the more subtle signs of tiredness that I had been missing, because he was actually tired WAY before I noticed. This worked wonders.

That is a classic growth spurt time. During certain times, there are growth spurts during which babies will wake with much more frequency as they need more calories. I would definately offer him the bottle. He probably falls asleep with the pacifier because he is sleepy, but I'd try the bottle first to make sure he's getting enough to eat. Check with your pediatrician about this. Maybe I'm off... I breastfed and did so on demand, and I think that bottle feeding should be similar, but I could be wrong. This article seems to connect with what I'm saying (although I don't think most pediatricians would agree about feeding baby cereal before 6 months):

Pediatrics, - Articles

I think I would just start with doing what I suggested is watching him intently at about 1 hour to 1.5 hours after he wakes up for the day, and then 1-1.5 hours after he gets up from his first nap... general rule is that they really can't stay awake for longer than 2 hours at this age. Start with that and see if that helps. If not, we can talk about ways to get him to stay asleep. A nap routine works wonders... nap books ("Time for Nap"by Jane Yolen is excellent), and a little song... sort of a mini bedtime routine.

Only if you want to because you don't like to rock him, or hold him to get him to sleep. If you are worried, however, that this is creating a "bad sleep habit" then just to assure you that what you are doing is natural and comforting for your little one. You do have to do what is best for you, however, so if it is frustrating for you to have to pick him up all the time, then NCSS has wonderful, gently ways to teach babies how to get themselves to go back to sleep, or go to sleep in the first place without being held... it can take a long time and it requires patience because there are many stages that it takes a few weeks at least to work through each one to develop the habitual ability to accept each stage, but it can work. We didn't do it because we like to cuddle our sons to sleep and my son (older one) stays asleep all night so we didn't have a problem with it.... so it's really up to you. I'm only saying this because sometimes people feel that cuddling their baby to sleep is the "wrong" way to do it, when most other cultures in the world wear their babies and keep them close all the time.

Again, I would just make sure it isn't a growth spurt... although 3 weeks is a long time for a growth spurt It could also be teething, though, which requires a lot of comfort from Mommy!

This could be teething as well...

I think that with NCSS, the idea is to follow as many of her sleep suggestions as possible as they all work together, instead of doing one thing or another at a time.

I think so... but again, just one phase at a time and give each phase at least 1 whole set of 10 days... make sure it is completely successful and seeming to be a well developed and comfortable habit before you move to the next phase.

Usually babies do this because they are hungry. I'd try the bottle or bf him first.

Yes.

Get her to look at the book, and show her your sleep plan when you have made it. My husband and I worked on this together so that he did the same things as me. My mom also took care of my sons and she follows my way of getting them to nap.

Bring items that he is familiar with, such as the same top sheet, the same lovey... if you have a lullaby cd that you use, this is great because then he would hear the same music wherever he goes. Or, if you have white noise at home, then try to have the same white noise at your mom's, such as a fan... this last one helps our boys sleep wherever we go. Always read the same books... all of these things help.

I would really try the idea of seeing if he wants to sleep sooner... my older son when he was that age was often ready for his nap after only being awake for an hour to an hour and a half after waking for the day, or waking from a nap... they definately should be having their next nap, or night sleep after 2 hours... in other words they shouldn't be awake for more than 2 hours at a time at that age (it obviously stretches out, but that age up to even a year old this is the idea).

Hope this helps!

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Host of:
The No Cry Sleep Solution
Attachment Parenting

thanks for reassuring me, i really thought that carrying the baby to sleep is a bad habit, and shouldn't be done since day 1. well, i don't really mind carrying him, but it's kinda tiring for me especially when he's struggling so much to sleep. furthermore i need to carry (he's almost 9kg) and walk and rock and sing and pat, alot of times i run out of breath before he falls asleep. the only consolation i have is that i'm now thinner than my pre-pregnancy figure

the hammock that i'm using is something like the Amby bed, but mine is just a simple net without mattress. initially i was avoiding using the hammock, as i thought the rocking motion might be bad for the brain, but i gave in as carrying him to sleep is getting very tiring.

i do start watching for his sign of tiredness an hr after he wakes up from his nap, but sometimes couldn't find any until 2 hrs later. sometimes he doesn't make so much fuss, so i thought he can be awake for 2 hr, and of coz sometimes he's overtired by then. sometimes when my parents or parents in law are playing with him, it's even harder for me to catch him, and i can only wait until he cries before making him sleep
i'll try to watch his sign of tiredness more closely again.

by now his growth spurt should have stopped, he's now sleeping from 8pm - 4+ or 5+am, which is great. hopefully he'll be able to drop his night feeding soon. sometimes he's wide awake after the 5am feeding, i will try to make him sleep after that, which he will after 30mins. just wondering why he's so alert at 5+am, he couldn't be having enough sleep as he hardly sleeps more than 4 hrs during the day.

Hi!
That sounds so much better! It's better than my 16 month old, for sure! You're lucky!

As for naps, if he doesn't look like he has obvious signs after 1.5 hours, I'd just try to take him for the nap routine anyway, because if he makes such a fuss at 2 hours, then perhaps he is tired, but really good at covering it up! I know lots of babies/kids that NEVER look tired, and in some unfortunate cases the parents let them stay up very late at night waiting for them to pass out, but really they are quite tired and they don't really show it in traditional ways. I know my older son is still like this: when he is tired he is still running around and having fun, but he's just a LITTLE bit more accident prone, and a LITTLE quicker to screech if something doesn't go his way, but he has never really started slowing down or anything that would be easy to figure out... so maybe your little one is able to continue to play but really would benefit with slowing down and having a nap routine... maybe he just needs that slow down first... it's hard to go from playing and laughing to being asleep, so just try a little earlier? Does this sound like it could be possible?

Just an idea I thought I'd throw out there... sleep is a funny thing!

__________________








Host of:
The No Cry Sleep Solution
Attachment Parenting

i'm so mad today. sometimes i would rather be alone with my son (though he can occupy all my time) so that i can control what i want to do, especially letting him sleep when i think he's tired.

today he woke up at 8am, nap from 9.40 - 10.10am. then we went to my parents' house, nap from 12 - 12.30pm, 2 - 2.30pm, 3 - 4pm. at 5pm, my mum was playing with him, and i realized he was tired (by observing his eyes), but my mum didn't think so as he was eager to play. anyway i still put him in the hammock, he cried immediately. then i tried carrying him to sleep, but he looked so alert and was looking around. my mum kept saying he wasn't tired, but i didn't wanna listen to her coz i know my son best. however he didn't sleep after 20 mins, so i left him alone on a mattress. after a while he started making noise, but i still couldn't make him sleep, he struggled so much. i knew he was overtired. in the end i gave him a bottle at 6pm, and managed to let him sleep at 6.30pm after a little bit of fuss. it's clearly he's overtired as after he woke up at 7pm, he's tired again by 7.30pm.

it's so difficult to let my mum understands the nature of a baby - stay awake for max 2 hrs; harder to make him sleep when he's overtired, the best bedtime is around 7-8.30pm etc. she's using her traditional method to take care of a baby, and she thinks when a baby is too tired he can sleep easier. i tried correcting her but i don't think she accepts that. and what happened to my son today was a good proof, but i don't think she relates to overtired.

there's 1 big puzzle that i have, whenever my son is sleepy, even though i make him sleep earlier, he doesn't seem to know how to close his eyes and sleep. that's why most of the time even if i try letting him sleep earlier, he doesn't close his eyes, and after a while, he's too tired and will cry a bit. i used to cover his eyes with handkerchief and it used to work as he slept faster. it doesn't work now as he will pull away the handkerchief.

no one seems to understand my problem, as my 15-month-old nephew sleeps so easily. the problem of overtired doesn't apply to him, as if he's too tired, he can sleep even faster.

The problem is it's possible that he isn't tired too... it's just something to try. Like I said, sleep is tricky. I think if you try for 10-15 minutes, gently - mind you, to get him to sleep (with rocking, a soft naptime story or a lullaby) and he doesn't go to sleep, then he probably isn't sleepy. It was really hard to get my older son to sleep at night time (which is different, but just an example). We did a bedtime routine that was soft and soothing with gentle lighting, sleep stories, quiet lullabies, white noise, and a lullaby CD... however about 50% of the time he wouldn't sleep at all, or would wake up after 15 minutes. We just ended up letting him stay up instead of fighting with him (trying to make him sleep when he wouldn't close his eyes)... he would just stay up and visit with us until it was our bedtime and he'd come to bed with us. I even e-mailed Elizabeth Pantley about this and she agreed that this is what was working for us in that phase. Now he sleeps fine when we put him to bed, but for YEARS if he didn't go to sleep after the whole bedtime routine we'd just let him stay up.... Remember that the ultimate goal is to make sleep a positive and gentle state to enter into, and if we are trying to force them, then they will hate it, hence the *no cry* idea. If there is any fussing or frustration on the part of our baby we just lay off and we start again the next day... our young guy is REALLY hard to get to sleep and NEVER napped properly, so instead of fretting over it, we just let him sleep when he looked tired, and slowly worked towards developing a general time when he naps... of course he still has LOTS of days that he naps at weird times, or weird lengths of time... and we just try to take it in stride because he is his own little person with his own temperament which has to be taken into account. Hope this helps! In a weird way it doesn't solve making creating a nap schedule easier, but hopefully can help you see to not worry about having a set out plan... Even in the NCSS book she quotes a sleep expert who says it can take til they are over 10 months old before they even START to have anything resembling a general sleep/naptime. Our baby was over a year before he had anything resembling a sleep pattern, and every once in while - even with the pattern - he will surprise us. What we have learned is to just go with it. On a different note, generally 5 year olds aren't usually having a nap anymore, and yet our older son sometimes will fall asleep on his own in the afternoon for 3-4 hours.... we just go with it. Makes it a bit easier if we don't panic about trying to figure it out too much... just keep plugging away with a gentle nap routine, gentle sleep pattern....

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Host of:
The No Cry Sleep Solution
Attachment Parenting

it's chicken and egg story. once i see him having sign of tiredness, i'll try to make him sleep, but if he doesn't sleep within 15 mins, i shall stop trying. then later he'll b very tired, and it'll b harder to make him sleep. it's really tough...
ok, i shouldn't worry too much about establishing a nap schedule, which i really don't think i can do that at this moment.

now another problem emerged. when i first wrote this thread, i was able to carry him to sleep and normally able to tell when he's tired. but suddenly a week ago, he cries so hard when i carry him with the normal way (horizontally with his head on the crook of my arm). and i need to carry him over my shoulder, he might slowly drift off to sleep, but it takes very very long time with some fuss. this has great impact on my back. out of suddenly i couldn't gauge whether he's sleepy. when he first yawns, rubs eyes, pulls ear...all these are not enough to indicate that he's really tired as he just won't sleep.

hi Zennifer, i see some light!! i managed to pat him to sleep tonight!! initially i carried him over my shoulder and pat him, he was obviously tired as he was resting his head on my shoulder. but somehow he just couldn't close his eyes still. since he was very calm, i put him down lying on my bed, i had my arm around him and was lying beside him. i continue patting and singing to him, and he finally slept (probably after 10 mins). i was soooooo happy. even though this may not be the case whenever i wanna make him sleep, but at least it's possible.

thank you so much for your support so far!!

i have 1 more doubt. i've been patting him to sleep over my shoulder, but it seems like getting harder and harder to make him sleep. he's very tired, he might be (as i can't see with his head next to my neck) half-closing his eyes over my shoulder, but he's still moaning alot and can't fall asleep immediately. for his bedtime, i'll carry him until he's drowsy and i'll lie down with him on my bed and pat him to sleep, he'll then fall asleep after a while (might need few tries). but it will be difficult if i don't have bed with me eg. when i'm out. another problem when i'm out is that he likes looking around and just wouldn't go to sleep. i'm worried that if he doesn't sleep (even though sleepy), he'll be overtired and cry later (which he did few times). anyway to overcome this? and what's the reason of him moaning so much when he wants to sleep?